ROCKWELL: Well, good morning. This is the Lew Rockwell Show. And how great to have as our guest this morning, Patricia Finn. Patti is a lawyer who specializes in helping parents, who have religious objections to their children being vaccinated by the government, and opt out. We're going to link to Patti's website, patriciafinnattorney.com.
Patti, you've been recently targeted, maybe you've been targeted for a long time, but you've been recently target by some judge, ordering you to turn over the names of all your clients, I guess, so they can be put into re-education camps or something – (laughing) – to be properly brought up to speed on what – the government's and the medical industry's view of vaccinations. So tell us about that.
FINN: Well, it is an unfortunate situation that I'm facing and it has been going on for quite some time. I only recently went public with it, responding to this outrageous demand that I provide the names of the clients that I represent.
My firm does focus on vaccine injuries and vaccine exemptions. But I will tell you, though, I am prohibited by law from describing myself as an expert or a specialist.
ROCKWELL: OK, I'll do that though.
FINN: Well, that's OK.
But, you know, it is unfortunate. And even that, as well as this attempt to get me to disclose the names of these people, you know, it's just an example of the burdening of my rights to practice law and, of course, to help the people that I represent.
But it has been going for quite some time and the firm – I am somewhat, or the work I do, anyway, is somewhat controversial. And I do catch the eye of people on both sides. And apparently, there is an individual on the Ethics Committee who has taken some real issues with me personally and is now attempting to strip my license from me based on these allegations that are completely false. And as part of that, you know, they had asked me to produce the names of the clients. This is the second time that they've done this. The first time they asked me, in 2009, I did not disclose the names. I gave an alternative explanation when I was charged with some violation and I gave an alternative explanation as to who I represent. My explanation was rejected and I was charged with misrepresentation. I didn't take any action at that time because, honestly, I was afraid and I was overwhelmed, and I thought, all right, just let it go. The names didn't go out. It happened. But now, here I am, you know, before you today, facing not only new charges similar to that but I'm being charged with violating the action in 2009. So it's just ridiculous. It's escalating out of control.
ROCKWELL: You know, it shows how important the whole vaccination program is to the regime. I remember some time ago hearing on NPR, one of the unlucky instances when I was listening to NPR, and they were saying, well, you know, we've known for a long time that hicks and rubes and stupid people and so forth, religious people, all the people we don't like, have been more and more interested in not having their children get this huge number of vaccinations that the government mandates. But they said, now, we're finding this is spreading to smart people, good people in Marin County, liberal people – Marin County, California – well-to-do people. So this has to be stamped out, they were saying. This is spreading.
Of course, it is spreading. More and more parents are questioning this. More and more – I know this is not your particular area, but physicians like Professor Don Miller, of the University of Washington Medical School, many other good doctors, pointing out just how much is done to a little baby, I mean, the unbelievable amount of stuff. And now we have the American Pediatric Association yesterday saying that all boys should get the HPV vaccine; not only girls, but boys, as a mandate. Of course, pharmaceutical companies are making a gazillion dollars. The doctors make a lot of money. And parent apparently account for nothing. The children are just a bunch of victims, research subjects for the government.
FINN: Well, it is outrageous. I mean, a baby gets multiple injections at birth. By the time they're 5 years old, CDC recommends something like 77 different doses of diseases being injected or given to children in the form of mists and cocktails and injections, and it's totally outrageous. And there is no doubt that Big Pharma is making huge money. And many doctors are also.
Because, in fact, this advertising complaint that I'm now facing stems from a letter that I had written to a pediatrician here in New York during the H1N1 debacle. In 2009, the health commissioner here in New York had ordered all health care workers to get the H1N1 vaccine during the swine flu issue. And I brought a lawsuit on behalf of these health care workers to stop the regulation.
And in the lawsuit, you know, we didn't really get into the science of it because, compared to today, you know, a few years ago, it was a huge fight to come out and say that maybe vaccines are harmful of whatever. The focus of my work and the focus of that lawsuit has always been on the constitutionality of these laws. I don't take – well, I do take a position, but not in my practice, as to whether or not you should shoot or you should not shoot. My issue has always been, does the government have a right to make you take these shots.
And during H1N1, what had happened was, all of a sudden, out of the blue, the health commissioner enacts an emergency regulation and he says, either you get H1N1 or you lose your jobs. And we attacked it as unconstitutional. We said, first of all, it's not an emergency and, secondly, he does not have the authority to do that.
The mandate was eventually repealed and they claimed it was a supply issue. But I read thereafter that something like $250 million worth of shots were actually incinerated several months later, so I don't know if it was that or not.
But during that controversy, I wrote to a local doctor and I told him that parents do not have to get the shots if they have valid religious or medical reasons. That is allowable here in New York. And he turned around and filed the complaint against me to the attorney general and this Ethics Committee, which was really one of the things that started my troubles that I'm now facing.
At that time, the committee never charged me with anything this doctor alleged, but they said that I lied in the letter to the doctor about the number of people I represent and – I don't know, there's something else. And then they demanded – they wanted to know who I represented. I did not answer that. I gave an alternative, got charged, and now I'm socked with being charged again.
But it was a local doctor that actually went after me for this, a pediatrician, who, I'm sure, loves these visits and loves, you know, that it's good to bring the children to inoculate, to his bottom line. You know, it promotes the bottom line. There's no doubt.
ROCKWELL: And, of course, we also have the – maybe we shouldn't call them kick backs – commissions or whatever that high prescribers get from the pharmaceutical companies. If you are prescribing a huge amount of statin drugs, for example, or giving a huge amount of vaccinations, you get paid for it, not only by the patient or the insurance company or the government, if it's Medicaid or whatever, but also by the pharmaceutical companies. So, yes, the doctors stand to make a whole lot of money. It doesn't mean that they're all liars, that they're all charlatans, but it's certainly in their financial interest to go along with the vaccination program.
FINN: Well, you know, I think that's an important point to make because, you know, these cases that I handle are very rare. I mean, most of the time, the doctors that I'm told about are generally quite nice. I mean, in my own pediatric practice that I go to, they – you know, they have encouraged me over and over again to get the shots but never harassed. They certainly understood the religious beliefs that I hold, and whatever other reasons there are that are out there for not wanting to vaccinate. And I would say that that is the case in most instances. However, when litigation pops up or these problems occur, they're in a small class of people that are being harassed or being denied an exemption or being denied medical treatment.
I mean, recently, Dr. Nancy Snyderman, here in New York – she's a medical doctor and an anchor on national news – she came out and basically tried to rally parents against those that did not want to vaccinate. And it was reckless. Her entire interview was outrageous. And, you know, but it's that type of activity or those types of attacks on people that don't want to vaccinate which become the subject of my work. And then, when we are defending the right of these parents not to vaccinate, or whatever it is that they want to do, they're right of bodily autonomy, the right of freedom over government intrusion, we attack the law. And you know, I was moving fast and furious.
I had a case – we applied to the Supreme Court last year on a very important case, Workman v. Mingo County. And the Supreme Court, unfortunately, did not grant certiorari. But I was denied admission to the Supreme Court as a result of these ethics charges that I'm now facing. And I'm done. You know, I've had it. I've done absolutely nothing wrong. These charges have nothing to do with escrow money or anything else. It's just a constant pounding of me, accusing me of lying over and over and over again. And every time I provide evidence to the contrary to show exactly what happened and where it was, it's overlooked and I get socked with more charges.
And the fact is, you know, I went public with it because I have nothing to hide. I'm telling the truth. Whether you agree with me or not, you know, that's a person's prerogative. But you've got to still believe in the Constitution. And that's what we're about here. That's what we're fighting for. And we want to use the Constitution to protect the children. And that's what we're about here.
ROCKWELL: Patti, do you think it's possible that you've been targeted by some people within the CDC or the FDA or some of the pharmaceutical or vaccination industry groups? We know that they do this, of course. People in the media who are expressing reservations about everybody being constantly vaccinated are targeted, too, although, not quite like you've been targeted. Do you think this is just not some doctor on his own doing it? Do you think it's a coordinated thing?
FINN: Oh, no. It is absolutely coordinated. And I'm quite sure about that now, because I absolutely have the evidence I need to get these charges dismissed. And we're working furiously on that. And instead of me defending and helping the parents I represent, I'm constantly trying to defend my own rights and my own family and the people that work for me. I mean, these attacks are costing a fortune. I'm spending hundreds of hours defending these baseless charges instead of representing the people that need me.
I don't know exactly why they're doing it. You know, no one's come up to me and said, hey, I love vaccines and I'm going to get you. But I do think that, you know, the controversial nature of the work that I do – and I am outspoken about it, but always respectful and always within the confines of the law. And I try to respect people's views that are on the other side.
But it was clearly this outspokenness, the nature of the work that I have done that made me a target. My license is very, very vulnerable. And now I get into a situation where there's an investigating attorney who seems to have no rules, no evidentiary rules. I don't know what she's looking at or what evidence is out there. And she's just socking me over and over and over and over again. And it's become so egregiously unconstitutional that, you know, I went to the press. And, you know, people can decide for themselves, do they really think I should give the names of these kids that I represent against vaccinating? I wouldn't do it. I would go to jail first before I gave it up. And I'm going to release the information.
So, you know, I don't know what the motivation is. But I do know that my license is really more of a restraining order than it is a privilege to practice law. And that's unfortunate. But that, in fact, is what's happened. And there is no doubt that my license makes me vulnerable. The work that I do has made me vulnerable. And now I'm being attacked for it. That, I'm quite sure of.
ROCKWELL: Well, you're being attacked because you've been so effective. You're stepping over a line that nobody is supposed to step over.
I remember back during the – earlier in the Republican primary race, when, first, Ron Paul brought up that Rick Perry was – the corrupt, horrible governor of Texas – in cahoots with Merck, had set up this HPV program to force all little girls to get the HPV vaccine. Ron Paul brought it up first. Then, Michelle Bachmann did. And that was good. I'm not a particular fan of Mrs. Bachmann, but I was glad she did that. And she was one of the favored people in the primary race, I think, because of her foreign policy and other policies. But when she brought up the fact that she'd been told by a mother that her daughter had been harmed by the HPV vaccine, then the whole media turned on Bachmann. I mean, they all went after her because you can't ever say there might be a bad outcome from a vaccination. I saw people, I think, Anderson Cooper, many other people in media say it's absolutely a lie; there's no bad affects from the HPV vaccine. Even though, of course, we know there have been many deaths, paralysis, many horrible, horrible, horrible outcomes from forcing little girls to get these vaccinations. And, of course, now they want to get little boys, too.
This is such a powerful, touchy issue for the whole regime. I think it has to do with controlling us. It's like the porno-scanners at the airport. They want us to be willing to do anything and let anything happen to our children because the government tells us so. It's part of building up what they'd like to have, a totalitarian society. You've helped prevent that. You've helped a lot of people. It's because you're effective. It's because you've done heroic work that they're targeting you. It's for your virtues of course.
FINN: Well, thank you. And I really appreciate that. I mean, it's hard work, and litigation is never easy. But I do know that our minds are in the right spot. Our hearts are in the right spot. And the law is on our side.
I think people are so harsh. If you bump up to the top of the pile, you know, they want to pull you down and attack you. And it's really very sad because – you know, there are lots of politicians out there that I don't agree with. I don't mind criticism or, you know, you not agreeing, but it's these personal attacks on people, this name calling. You know, they're children, of course, but they're hearing that; they're seeing that. And it's outrageous. And now, here I am, sucked up into the middle of it, you know, also being accused of like horrendous things, you know, advertising.
I mean, one of the charges I'm facing is, for suspending my license, is I used the word "downgraded" to describe a court order that was, in fact – the content was downgraded, there's no doubt about it. And I've been deemed a danger to the public because I used that word. I mean, it's so outrageous. I have a right of speech. I didn't misrepresent the content of the order. I simply described what I believed – and other lawyers that were with me, that's how we viewed it. And now, here I am facing, you know, a charge to suspend my license. And I cannot even tell you the thousands and thousands of dollars to defend this. Hundreds and hundreds of hours of my time that I could be helping parents who don't want the HPV vaccine.
Forget about the medical issue. Maybe they are of a faith that doesn't engage in pre-marital sex. Now, you may think that doesn't happen in this world but, yes, some people do follow a faith that doesn't engage in high-risk behavior. There's no drugs. You know, the sects may have certain prescriptions because of their faith. So then you turn around and you say, OK, you know, I'm Catholic, we don't believe in abortions, and now you're forcing me to inject aborted fetal cells into my body? It doesn't matter what your view is on the subject. It's what these individual's views are. And those rights are protected by the Constitution. You have a right to freedom of religion. You have a right to refute injection of aborted fetal cells. You have a right to say no to the government puncturing your skin and injecting substances that are being made in secret labs, you know, in Europe or something. It's crazy. And it has nothing to do with the science. It has to do with the over-grasp and the over-reaching of the government. And that is a very important fight out there that – you know, we're constitutional lawyers and that's what we're fighting.
ROCKWELL: Patti, let me ask you just one more question. If somebody is interested in the whole vaccination question, what would you recommend that they read? Are there books that we should be reading?
FINN: Well – (laughing) – you know, that's an interesting question because it's so far out there. You know, the information on both sides is – traditionally, the information that I was reviewing was being pumped out by the pharmaceutical companies about the safety and efficacy of vaccines. Recently, however, and definitely since the H1N1 debacle here in New York, the evidence is just coming out, just unbelievable, against vaccines.
I know that VacTruth, there is a researcher there who is doing excellent work. Her name is Marcella Piper-Terry.* And she is doing amazing research in that area. That's a great place to go.
You know, I suppose that is the medical question, in some ways, too. It's something that you need to look at the evidence, look at the information, talk to your doctor about, and make a decision. But if you decide that it's something you don't want to do, the law is there to protect you, the First Amendment, the Ninth Amendment. There's statutory rights to opt out of vaccines. And if you want to opt out and you're being denied that right, then clearly that is something you could come to us about. And people are. They're just pouring in.
And it's unfortunate, too, because litigation is so incredibly expensive that, if you are wrongfully denied an exemption and we cannot negotiate or reason with the people – and we do have great success doing that. I mean, the school officials, they're not out to get parents. I mean, I have seen some egregious acts but, generally, it's a lack of knowledge or a lack of understanding. You know, pediatricians, I think it's the same thing.
But if you are in a situation where you're being forced to vaccination or lose your job, or prohibited from school, or harassed by CPS and you need to litigate, you know, the price of that is outrageous. And fortunately, we do lots and lots of pro bono work. And we take pro bono cases that are exemplary. We take cases – for example, the appeal in the Workman case, that was a pro bono – the appeal was pro bono on our part because we needed to get this case in front of the Supreme Court. And fortunately, a lot of people jumped in at the end here. There were other organizations who were watching what we were doing and stepped up to help. And it was a good thing they did because I was getting the daylights beaten out of me by the Ethics Committee. We were out of money and we were out of time and, you know, fortunately, these people came up.
And since this story broke, too, you know, the prayers, the blessings, the support, the donations that we're receiving are really amazing. And honestly, it's given me a lot of strength to go forward. And I want to thank everybody for doing that. We're very grateful for all that.
ROCKWELL: Well, Patti, we're all rooting for you. And I know it's David against Goliath, but we remember what happened that time, too, so.
Keep up what you're doing. We'll link to your website, patriciafinnattorney.com.
Thanks so much for coming on the show today.
FINN: Oh, thanks so much. Could you also link to vaccineexemption.org, because that is another site we've set up. And, you know, there's information there about wanting to get involved and support the litigation, and the litigation to protect my license as well. But either one, patriciafinnattorney.com, or vaccineexemption.org.
And I want to thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity to be on your show. Thank you so much.
ROCKWELL: We'll link to both sites, and thanks a million.
FINN: OK. Good talking to you. Thank you.
ROCKWELL: Well, thanks so much for listening to the Lew Rockwell Show today. Take a look at all the podcasts. There have been hundreds of them. There's a link on the upper right-hand corner of the LRC front page. Thank you.
* This name was corrected and will differ from the audio.
December 20, 2012
Copyright © 2012 by LewRockwell.com. Permission to reprint in whole or in part is gladly granted, provided full credit is given.